Sales needs a Process

[0:00] You know, there's so many pieces and parts to the sales process, particularly complex sales or enterprise sales. You know, you're trying to meet with stakeholders. You're trying to get the right players, players in the room. You're doing demos. You're managing and juggling a lot of different pieces and parts. But the one piece that I think is just sorely overlooked and not really spent enough time on is the discovery phase of what we do in a sales profession. Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. If you are listening to this, you are likely leading a team responsible for generating revenue. Purpose of Full Funnel Freedom is to support people like yourself and keep your.

[0:48] Music. Welcome to the Full Funnel of Freedom podcast. I'm your host, Hamish Knox. Today, I am delighted to have Don Hicks as my guest. Don is the Area VP of Sales for the Midwest in the United States for Venture Employer Solutions. He manages a team of two leaders and 30 sales professionals. Professionals the venture is an hr and technology firm that helps businesses deal with the complexities of having employees now before don got into a sales leadership position he served eight years in the united states marine corps and was had the special honor of being named marine of the year his superpower is in coaching training and deal strategy don welcome to full final Alfredo. Glad to be here. It's a pleasure.

[0:48] Funnels consistently, reliably full.

[1:40] Well, first of all, thank you very much for your service to your country. Very much appreciate that. And I've given the audience the 30,000 foot view of who you are and what you do. Tell us your story. Take us from where you started to where how you got to where you are today. Yeah, so I actually fell into sales by accident. So after the Marine Corps, I was I did some legal work for the Department of Defense here in the United States. And at that time in 1997, it didn't pay a whole lot. So I got a part-time job as a bartender, which is one of my favorite jobs. And it taught me dealing with people and personalities and having conversations. But anyway, there was one gentleman that kept coming to my bar at least once a week. And he was always so nice and in good mood and well-dressed. And I just walked up to him one day and went up to him and say, man, what do you do for a living? And he told me sales. And I didn't know sales was a profession.

[2:36] So we started having this conversation. He told me how much money he was making. You know, on a good night as a bartender, if you made $60, it was a good night. And he was making $2,000, $3,000 a week. And I was like, I need to be part of that. So serendipity took hold. A couple of weeks later, I got a call randomly from a recruiter. And he said the word sales. And I was like, I'll be there. So I started selling life insurance and mortgages, second mortgages, going door to door. And at that time in 1997, they had yellow pages. So I was calling the yellow pages and going door to door. And it really taught me sales and prospecting. So I did that for two years. And then in 1999, right at the Y2K and beginning of 2000, I got into software enterprise sales. So that launched my B2B sales career in 1999. I've been in sales ever since. So I've sold everything from technology to software to HR services to legal services. And it brings me here to where I am today. So I'm proud that I've been an individual contributor and I've been in sales leadership positions.

[3:49] And I love sales leadership because it gives me a pathway for coaching and training and teaching and helping others develop their career and see a lot of success. So as you mentioned, Venture, we do help small businesses and pretty much any size businesses just deal with all of the complexities of having employees, whether it's on the people side or the recruiting side or the expertise side or the technology side. We solve business problems. So that's a little bit about my background. So I've done it all when it comes to sales. Well, and if your superpower is coaching, you know, sales leadership is creating success through others. So you're in a really good place right now, Don. Now, something else that is really important that you and I both believe in, because we were talking about it before we started recording,

[4:34] is the importance of having a process for qualifying. And as a leader, really having a process that we then distill down to our sellers. So from your perspective and experience, like why has that been so important to you about having a process that everyone is aligned on? Yes. So that's the key word, have a process. So the number one skill that I see today in any sales professional in any industry, whether you are in transactional sales or enterprise sales or a complex sales, is having a process when doing discovery.

[5:11] Don't wing it. So whether it's Bantz or Spin Selling or Sandler or whatever the case may be, Medic, there's a ton out there. But please have a process because buyers want to be heard and you need to listen and you need a framework. Otherwise, it sounds like an interrogation. So let me just share the history of how I came about this. I sold the way I'm trying to communicate not to sell for about two decades. I did it the wrong way. And a few years ago, what I saw was, and I was very successful, you know, multiple president's clubs, but I was working hard. And I looked at some of my metrics.

[5:53] And I was closing one out of every seven proposals and I was killing myself. So that's about a 14, 15 percent closing rate. And I was like, hold on, Don, how can I get it to one in four? You know, just change it a little bit. So one one afternoon I sat down and I looked at all of my deals that I had closed for the previous two years.

[6:16] And I said, what trend trend am I seeing? What is common in all of these? And I came up with a framework. All of my deals that I had closed, they had this commonality. And I call it the framework that I use. You can use anything you want to. But the framework that I use is called NIAET, N-I-A-E-T. And let me explain each one, if I could, please. So and that's a framework. So when you're having a discovery conversation with a buyer and you come across a problem that needs to be solved, that's the need. You've uncovered the problem perfect and then you ask about the eye the impact okay the eye what impact is that having on the organization or on the person you're talking to it could be a personal impact it could be a financial impact it could be an operational impact you need to understand what impact that problem is having number two so we have the end we have the eye the A. The A is alternatives.

[7:17] You want to ask the buyer, what have they done in the past to solve it? It really gives you a way to test how serious they are. Is this problem a nuisance or is it something they are actively in the market trying to solve? And then you go into having the E part of Nia ET, the E is economics. I do not believe in a budget conversation. To me, budget is a limiting mindset, meaning if I have $100 to spend on something, I cannot spend $101. I have to spend $100. I do not think that really uncovers the needs of buyers or problem. You need to have of an economics discussion.

[8:04] What economic impact is that problem having? If you were to fix this problem, what economic impact boost is that going to give to the organization? And that way you can justify your pricing, you're not discounting, you're not incentives, you are having an economics discussion. And the T in that timing is, when do they want their problem solved? It's a different conversation if they want the problem solved yesterday or 30 days from now, or you say, well, Q3 of 2025, twenty five. That's probably not one you're going to go to your boss or your sales leader and forecast for twenty twenty four. So it really gives a good conversation piece or a framework when having conversations. What I hear in when when people are not having a or using a framework is you're really only having surface level conversations. You're really not digging into the problem. You're not asking those second and third level questions.

[9:04] And then it sounds like an interrogation. And trust me, I've been there when I've been peppering clients with questions because it's all about me and what I need in this conversation. But the more you can focus on the buyer and using some type of framework to really drill down into what they want to solve, if they want to solve it, when do they want it solved, and what kind of economic boost they're going to get from that, it really helps with the conversation. So that's something that I have developed over the years by doing it the wrong way. I know for my region with my team is something that we are constantly teaching and coaching and looking for in our deal strategies. So you can use Nia ET or a framework in any part of the sales process. You can use it when, obviously, when you're talking to buyers, you can use it, but you can also use it with your sales leader if you're having deal strategy conversations. So to test the the validity of the deal or the strength of the deal. So you can use it in all at all aspects of the sales process, again, whether it's with the buyer, or internally.

[10:10] Very cool. Thank you for sharing that framework with our audience. And yeah, I've had that same experience both as a buyer and a seller where, you know, I hear sellers and leaders say, well, you know, we do consultative selling. Well, what consultative selling has come out to is like a death march of questions, which the buyer very quickly figures out they can get around and then we get trapped in this cycle that doesn't help anybody out. So, Don, what I'm curious about is whatever the process is, right? So whether NEAT or whether, you know, pick something as a sales leader, what are some of the payoffs to a leader, right? So the leader says, we're going to go with this, roll it out. What is the leader going to experience from a positive perspective once they actually get a system or a process in place like whichever one they choose? Yeah, it can really uncover or help you coach the person on your team where the gaps are, what information is missing.

[11:14] It really forces you to drill down into is this a valid deal or not a valid deal? Is it a deal that has legs or not? Is this a deal that should be forecasted or not? So it really forces the leader to really work alongside of your sales professional. And then if there's any other information that needs to be gathered, to go back to the buyer, ask deeper, deeper questions.

[11:43] Again, those second, third, fourth level questions really helps drive how serious the buyer is in solving this problem and if you have a strong deal or not. So you can go through each part of whatever framework you're using and fill the gaps is what I would say to that. I appreciate that. And why don't sellers ask those second, third, and fourth level questions from your experience? You know, I don't know. And I've been selling for about 27, going on 28 years now. And I think, to be honest with you, I think it's poor sales training in the past. We just really haven't focused on really doing deep discovery. I think a lot of sales training programs spend a lot of time on product training versus discovery training. But if you get the discovery right, it makes everything else really, really beautiful in the sales process. Number two, I just think that there is a sense of a key word is curiosity.

[12:51] Curiosity, having this curious nature to you. When a buyer is telling you one thing and you're looking at the data or you're looking at something they told you 10 minutes ago, do they align? Are there conflicts? And being able to have a, professional acumen or a business acumen to ask those questions and clear up the conflicts and really understand what's going on and that is driven by curiosity I do believe that you can develop curiosity by developing your business acumen obviously you need to know the products and the services and what you deliver that is a given but the the art of discovery and sometimes even challenging your buyer is a healthy thing. And it really uncovers the root cause of problems. And I tell my team, don't be sales professionals. I say that jokingly, be problem solvers though.

[13:46] Sales will come as a result of you solving problems. It is not the other way around. And I spent two decades doing it the wrong way where I was just chasing sales versus really focused on the buyer and solving problems. and really getting good and practicing. Practice with your leaders.

[14:05] Practice with your colleagues. Really get good. Do pre-call preparation before you go into a discovery call. Get with your leader and determine what questions do you need to ask in order to really get to those, again, those root causes. But to answer your question more directly, I think it's a lack of training meaning and i think it's a lack of curiosity and a skill that needs to be practiced and developed, almost constantly in this profession fair enough and and uh your vulnerability is is uh is very much appreciated don i had similar type type experience when i got into sales it was like i was going out and doing it to people instead of trying to figure out how to how to support them and solve their what their challenges were get them from where they were to where they wanted it to be instead of

[14:54] where I thought they should be and what they should buy from me. Let's dive deeper into something you just said, though, because I am a huge believer in practice, which is code for role play. Yes. Everyone likes to do. So tell us more about the importance of practice, role play, and then let's dive into pre-call planning a bit, because those to me are two separate things, equally important. So starting off with the importance of practice.

[15:20] Why? Why is that so critical to be a successful sales leader and support your sales team? I cannot tell you the number of sales professionals in my past where they just wing it because they have the greatest personality and everyone loved them. You know, listen, that's good. We all have to be likable. But you really this is a art form and you cannot wing it. You have to practice it. Most other professionals, whether it's legal, attorneys, doctors, sports, military, whatever the case may be, they all practice. They all watch film. They all do mock plays. Just talk to any doctor, any attorney, any professional. They practice. And for some reason in sales, some don't think they need to practice. But there's all kinds of technology out there. There are systems and technology that can record calls. We live in a virtual environment. So there is the gongs of the world or other platforms.

[16:22] Chorus as an example and other platforms that were actually record calls and that will help the sales leader, Scale their their their availability to listen to calls and an opportunity for coaching So sales leaders out there record your calls. It will help you see things and just tremendous coaching opportunities. But for the sales professionals out there, you have to practice self-development, listen to yourself, record your calls on an iPhone for goodness sake, if that's all that you have. But you really need to study this profession, whether it's looking at yourself on video, listening to the recordings, listen to the interactions on your calls. There are instances where we record calls from my team today and we will play it back and you'll be surprised of what we hear the second, third time listening to that recording that we did not hear in the live session because we can pause it, we can slow it down, we can stop it and coach on it and say, did you hear that? And we use that for putting together proposals on things that we heard. So you have to be committed and disciplined to, you know, one hour a week, whatever the case may be, to practicing because you're going to pick up on things that you didn't really, you may not realize that you said or did or heard from the buyer.

[17:51] Very cool. Yeah, completely aligned on this idea of role play. I say the hardest four inches to move is brain to mouth. And so it's all well and good to know something, but until we actually adjust our behavior or adjust our phrasing. It doesn't actually work. I am curious because this comes up quite frequently about like listening to call recordings, things like that. And I get it because if you've got a team of more than one, that could seem overwhelming to, you know, be listening to these recordings and making notes and sending coaching and all this kind of stuff. What are some of your best practices to make the best use of your time as a leader when you are making these calls and then by extension support your sellers with whatever coaching you have after the fact.

[18:36] Yeah, so it is time consuming. Don't get me wrong. I mean, it takes effort to listen and record these calls. But just build a system for yourself. It may have to be after hours when you listen to these calls. Just make it part of your process. Have a system. Put it on your calendar.

[18:54] Dedicate an hour or two a week to listen to your calls and provide feedback to your team. but it to your team, but it does take some effort. So whatever that system, just me personally, I have a checklist. I'm a, I'm a big process structure guy. So I just have a checklist. I have it on my calendar when I'm going to listen to recordings, uh, for both my leaders and for those on the team. And I just, I just spend an hour listening to those calls and I have a checklist of what I'm looking for. And then I provide that feedback to my team in a written format and say, here's the call, here's the client, here's what you did great, outstanding, here's some opportunities to get a little bit better, here's maybe some things that you missed, have you thought about this? So it's written form, that way they can review it, they can see it, they can document it. So you just have to build whatever process, but it takes effort because we're all busy. I mean, we have a lot of people that we're managing, we're moving at a fast pace, but it is critical to the sales professional you are trying to develop. They really appreciate that feedback. They may not tell you, but they really appreciate that feedback. And one of the questions, Hamish, that you asked and I missed was pre-call planning. I wanted to get back to that. Pre-call planning with your team is absolutely critical, even to the point of anticipating things that may come up.

[20:21] Anticipating. What if they say this? What if the buyer says this? How are we going to respond to it and practice it? I can't tell you the number of times where we practice it. Well, this may come up. How are we going to handle this? Or this might be a little bit of a difficult question, or this may be a little bit of a difficult conversation.

[20:40] If they say this, what are we going to say? So when it comes up, you'd be surprised when you practice it and it comes up is you can just nail it and a lot of it is tone and cadence when that tough question comes up or that tough conversation has to be had guess what you practice it so you don't miss a beat but if you're hemming and hawing and sort of beating around the bush the buyer picks up on that almost immediately particularly in a first-time call so practice and pre-call planning in what you're trying to accomplish, what you want to get out of the conversation, understanding the buyer, their personalities, those types of things are absolutely critical in preparing for a sales call. Absolutely. I often tell my team when I'm practicing speaking engagements with them, the first time it comes out of our mouth, it usually sucks. And so if it's the first time it comes out of our mouth in front of our buyer, it usually sucks. And unfortunately, that's where it costs us money. So I'd rather do it in front of my leader.

[21:41] So where it's not going to cost me money. It may knock me down a couple of pegs in the moment, but because I'm practicing it, it actually raises my credibility with them. So Don, you and I could chat about this stuff all day. We have previously. So I am curious, if you could go back and coach younger Don, go back as far as you like and say, hey, younger Don, in the future, you're going to develop this great sales process, area VP, Marine of the Year, all this wonderful success. Seth, you're also going to have a lot of scar tissue and bumps and bruises. What would you coach younger Don to say or do different to get to the same place, but with a little less scar tissue and fewer bumps and bruises? Yes, I sort of made reference to it already, but I will just emphasize it.

[22:26] Please make it about the buyer. It is not about you or me. And the number of people and buyers that I've come across in my career, almost 28 years, where I just spent the wrong time with the wrong buyers. They weren't ready to buy. They weren't able to buy. But somehow I thought Don could convince and give them a discount and all of this stuff. And I tell you, that stuff doesn't work. It really doesn't. It may work some, but from a sustainable career, a scalable career, it is not about us. And that goes back to discovery. A lot of the discovery questions about the questions that fit you, but focus on the needs of the buyer. So if I had to go back to the young Don, it pains me to say this,

[23:14] but the young Don is to really focus on the buyer. It is not about you. It's about solving business problems. And the more you focus on buyer needs, spending time with people that have problems that need to be solved, that you can solve, you're going to have a very successful career.

[23:31] Very fair. What great advice for all of us to hear. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that with us. I am curious because you are a lifelong learner. What have you read, watched, or listened to, whether it was recently or in the past, that you would encourage the audience of sales leaders around the world to check out for their own personal and professional development? Yes. So one of the books that I just finished reading, I think you may know her, Carol Mahoney, By Your First is a fantastic, and it really supplements what we're talking about today in the topic is By

[24:04] Your First by Carol Mahoney is a fantastic book. So really read that um the jolt effect j-o-l-t by um ted mckenna and um matt dixon is uh if you know matt dixon he wrote the challenger sale but he came up with the book about two years ago i believe called the jolt effect and how to help with buyer indecision so those are the two books that i would definitely recommend very cool we'll certainly link to those in the show notes and the And the last question I have for you, Don, is you've already given us so many great ideas and insights around having a process, role playing, pre-call planning, et cetera. What do you have as a closing bit of wisdom, a final thought, or even something to plug? The floor is yours. Yeah.

[24:49] So really nothing to plug. So if you want to reach out to me, I love talking sales. I'll talk sales all day long. So just, you can find me on LinkedIn, Don Hicks. Hicks is spelled H-I-C-K-S. So feel free to reach out to me. I would love to chat with you. But other than that, I just love giving back to the sales community because it's been so good to me. So a piece of advice is what we talked about.

[25:13] Really get good at discovery, and it will change your life and make you a lot of money. So appreciate that. I'm ready to wrap this up. Dawn, thanks for being a guest on Full Funnel Freedom today. Sure. Thank you. Appreciate it. It. Sales leaders, I loved Dawn's ideas and insights today, specifically around using a process. I've had this conversation with a bunch of clients and sales leaders in my network. In fact, I had one sales leader who got into a startup company that was funded by a very, very wealthy individual. And they shared with me that they were talking to this lead investor and they were saying, well, yeah, you know, there's this process and that process and this process. And the investor said, you have to pick one because if you have more than one, it gets muddled. Your go-to-market doesn't necessarily align and everybody's doing what's comfortable instead of what is effective for sustainably scaling your sales. I also obviously love Don's comments about role play.

[26:16] I'm a huge fan. That mindset to instill in your sellers of the first time that we say something that usually sucks often gets them over the hump of why should I do role play? Well, because if you do role play with me or with one of your colleagues, it's not going to cost you money. You may feel a little silly in the moment, and you're not going to damage rapport with a buyer and potentially unintentionally lengthen or ultimately kill a sales cycle. The other thing that I really appreciated him talking about was the pre-call planning and what could happen when they ask fill-in-blank. One of the things that we share with leaders and sellers that we work with is our buyers want to be working with surgeons, not interns. Patterns so when a buyer says hey what about this and our seller goes uh or oh i gotta go talk to my manager about that then they start to lose credibility it doesn't mean that our seller can't say hey that's a super technical question beyond my scope if we want to keep the conversation going let me roll in a technical resource and get a specific answer to the question here's what i know from other clients that we've worked with that's absolutely okay because it's giving the buyer what the seller knows and the seller is making an offer should the buyer want to continue.

[27:38] And it's not just offering to bring in a technical resource like a lot of sellers do when the buyer could really care less. They were just testing the seller a little bit. So I'm curious to hear what your big takeaways are in the comments on our social media. Leave them there. And until we connect on the next episode, go create full funnel of freedom. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast.

[28:03] You can continue to support us by leaving us a review and a rating, sharing this episode with a couple of sales leaders in your network who you care about. I'd love to connect with you. I'm easy to find, Hamish Knox on LinkedIn. Also, if you'd like a free 15-minute call with me, go to www.hamish.sandler.com forward slash howtosandler. Until we connect on the next episode, go create full funnel freedom.

[28:30] Music.