Marketing and Sales Can Work Together

[0:04] This is the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast, supporting sales leaders and managers to improve their sales funnels from people to prospects. I'm Hamish Knox. In this show, you'll learn how you can improve your results, lead a great team, and hit more targets with Full Funnel Freedom.

[0:22] Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Hamish Knox. Today, we're going to be getting ideas and insights from Caleb Clark, co-founder and chief partnership officer at Hook and Ladder Digital around how marketing can support sales and sales can support marketing. The Full Funnel Freedom podcast is brought to you by Sandler in Calgary. Are you tired of consultants who just tell you what you need to do to scale? Sandler's got the what's and we'll also stick around and help you out with the hows. Go to hamish.sandler.com forward slash how to Sandler to find out more and book an introductory call. So my guest today is Caleb Clark, the co founder and chief partnership officer at hook and ladder digital, which is a full service digital marketing agency that support client partners across multiple industries, including hospitality, finance, home services, real estate, construction, and environmental sustainability. His experience and expertise is best leveraged by established brands who are growing and want to transform their digital marketing department into an industry-leading ROI machine. Caleb, great to have you on the Full Funnel Freedom podcast.

[1:31] Thanks. Thanks for having me, Hamish. Pleasure to be here.

[1:35] So I've given the audience a quick overview of you and Hook & Ladder. Expand on that story for us. Give us the 90 seconds of Caleb, how you got to where you are, and a little bit more about Hook & Ladder. For sure. I mean, I did my MBA 12 years ago, met a smart guy in the front of the class, picked him to be my business partner. And we started the agency 12 years ago. And today, listen, like at the end of the day, marketing directors have a tough gig. They got.

[2:02] Allocated budget, lots of different options available to them. And a lot of times a lack of clarity in terms of what to do, when to do it, how to do it, all those types of things. So the best marketing programs cannot be prescribed to you. They need to be co-created together. So we sell digital marketing departments as an integrated extension of your already existing team. So that's us. Well, that found a smart person at the front of my MBA class is It's a Hollywood cliche. We've seen that over and over and over again in movies. Love that story. I love the fact that it's not prescribed, right? I've had that experience of, you know, we know marketing, we're smart, and, you know, I don't really care what you think about your brand or your company. We're the experts here, which is semi-off-putting. And that actually ties into

[2:53] the first question I wanted to ask you. You know, everybody thinks that they need marketing until they discover they have to pay for it. Right. So what are you struggling with in terms of keeping your funnel full at hook and ladder these days? Yeah, it's a great question. There's a few things. And one of them is for sure, a lot of agencies out there creating a lot of noise and a lot of bad experiences that are transactional. They are kind of fluffy, I guess, is a word that gets tossed around a lot. Yeah. And they're giving the groups like us, I like to think like us, It's a bit of a bad name because of some of these things, the available hours, marked up expenses.

[3:32] Selling one thing and then deploying a team of junior or inexperienced marketers to the actual execution of the vision. These are all difficult things for leaders, marketing leaders, and it gives them a bit of a bad taste. So they decide, well, maybe I'll just go in-house with this. So that, and then the other challenge is not committing to in having, you know, either yourself or other members of your team, not understanding that the activities that you do today create the impact 90 days from now and, and create the, uh, the funnel lethargy, uh, sometimes I call it. So I like that phrase. Okay. Let's dive deeper into that because that is something that we see over and over again is, you know, oh, well, our, our funnel is full. We can take the gas off of putting stuff in the top of the funnel or, oh, we can't handle any more work. So you evil salespeople better slow down. So.

[4:27] Help, help the audience understand a bit more about that, that what we do now is actually going to pay off 90 days. Cause I think that's brilliant. Yeah. And I understand the temptation to take your foot off the pedal of the things that are quote unquote, less enjoyable, you know, picking up the, picking up the phone, uh, making initial introductions, asking for introduction. These are all things that are the easiest to cut out of your day-to-day routine when you're experiencing, you know, good client flow, but you know, I think it's, it requires a repositioning of those things in your mind as the sowing of seeds less so much the, you know, the things that, that cause pain or whatever it's creating opportunities for the future so that you can give your sales team and the rest of your organization, easier opportunities for establishing right fits than, than they otherwise would have just feast or famine type thing. Amen. Amen. I love that. Well, and when you get into that famine period, you're probably going to discount, you're probably going to offer to do free work, which when you're selling a service is super easy to do. That's your end product, but it ends up costing you time. And I think you still got to pay your people, whether the client's paying you or not. Is that accurate?

[5:39] That's for sure. For sure. And I think the other thing that we have to remember is getting a, I mean, there's lots of revenue out there. There's lots of clients out there, but how impactful is it? For your team and for you to cherry pick the best. And the only way you can cherry pick the best, and I'm not saying the best companies, the best company for you specifically, the only way to cherry pick and go through that activity is to have abundance. Right. And so. And create the abundance. That's right. So.

[6:12] Marketing, sales, sales, marketing. There's lots of cliches that have been used about the relationship or lack thereof between the two groups. You know, sales thinks that marketing gets some terrible leads. Marketing thinks that sales doesn't follow up on the leads that they give them. So let's dive into this, you know, marketing supports sales, sales supports marketing because it is really a symbiotic relationship. Marketing is everything that happens before you get to hello,

[6:40] but then it also is supportive all the way through the sales cycle. So from your experience, Caleb, where, where do you see as the marketing supporting sales? And we'll go the reverse in a second.

[6:53] Marketing supporting sales. Well, um, there's man is such a big topic and we go on forever, but I think what I'll, what I'll share is it's one customer value journey at the end of the day. Like the customer doesn't see the divide between marketing and sales, right? Like they're just going along their day and they have a problem or they have a pain or they are in pursuit of some form of transformation, right? Because people don't buy products or services. They buy a transformation from a non-desired before state to an ideal after state. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they become aware of you, either through an introduction or an ad or a piece of content they see online. And there begins their customer value journey, right? And at some point along the journey, after they become engaged, after they part with a little bit of their time or a little bit of their money to engage with you, at some point in here, sales slowly takes over. But if it's this distinct divide between sales and marketing, what it does is it creates...

[7:57] It just creates such a clunky and weird experience for this poor customer who's on their little value journey and wants a seamless experience. So I think the biggest way marketing can support sales and vice versa is to create more of a togetherness or more of a tangent experience. Make it sales and marketing in the same room. Make it where you deploy marketing activity and then you intentionally establish a feedback back loop from sales to explain, hey, this was working and this was not working. And very interesting out of this campaign that you guys ran, we saw some very unique customers come through and here's how they were described. And they actually converted at a higher rate than this segment. And so I think positive or effective and productive feedback loops between both camps is critical. So integration, I think, is the critical word. Amen. Now, when we talk integration, Do we literally have to have like a VP of sales and marketing running one unified department? Or could we literally have an actual communication going back and forth, whether it's between you and the VP of sales, because you're the outsourced marketing department, or you're supporting the marketing VP? Like, do we literally have to run everybody into one unit? Or could we have separate groups, but they're unified because they have a common goal?

[9:13] That. I think building plans together and having input and perspective from both departments, if you will, but then being tethered to a common goal. And that common goal should be not just generating customers, but generating customers who turn into raving and active fans. And so if that's the endpoint sort of KPI, how do we reverse engineer the two disciplines, sales and marketing, together? together, right? And whether you're leveraging an outsourced or an external partner or an internal team, you know, it should all be, like I said, it should all be organized by, by a central, a central plan with input from both sides. Totally. And, and this ties into this idea of perverse incentives. You know, if, if marketing is going to be compensated, however, they are compensated or judged based on the number of leads, well, I can get you thousands of garbage leads. And if sales is going to be judged on only the leads that they called on, or only the leads that they closed, even though they may have to, you know, go through a whole bunch of chaff to actually get to the few kernels

[10:19] of wheat, well, now we're misaligned. And that's where the, that's where I know in my experience, the fighting is going to begin. So-

[10:26] What is it that sales leaders in particular don't get about marketing and marketing leaders? Because we are supporting sales leaders and keeping their funnels consistently, reliably full. If you could say something to the sales leaders who are listening, what is it from that marketing side? I would say that marketing, the things I would encourage them to consider or pontificate to own is that sales starts the very moment somebody goes from a total stranger to aware. Like, so, so sales, and I, I don't know if this is the right way to define it, but I just look at it as, as business development is the function and there's a sales and a marketing component to it. But I mean, from the very first moment where somebody lays eyes on you, sales, sales begin, sales cycles begin or the, or the process begins. And then when they turn that glance, into a stair, which is engagement, that's still sales. I mean, but traditionally we would think that that's a marketing function and hey, don't bother me with these people until they, until they fill out the lead magnet or they give us their contact information.

[11:36] It's just crazy thought, right? Because they're the same person and it's incredibly important that the sales professional understands how that person came to them, the cycles of engagement they went through. The segment that they represent and the potential pains that they are burdened by. Because I mean, ultimately that's going to inform our, for those Sandler folks out there, our 30 second commercials, our all of these things. And so, yeah, sales and marketing equals business development. And I would like to see that.

[12:06] The further development of more business development teams, if that makes sense. Very cool. Yeah, I know that whole integration that was recently introduced by someone to the book, Team of Teams by General Stanley McChrystal. And they were using it in the context of really integrating their sales and delivery teams for their clients. So there was one unified customer journey from the minute that we said hello all the way through implementation. But why couldn't we just add in that lead generation expert or that, you know, traditionally called a marketer into that team? And now we've got that whole journey. I remember I was making a prospecting call several years ago, Colt called the VP of sales. And I said, you know, you know, it's Hamish with Sandler. Do either of those ring any bells? And he went, this is the Hamish Knox with Sandler in Calgary. And I said, can you back up a little bit? Cause I'm a little scared right now. Like, do you have a drone following me around? Whatever. Well, it turned out he listened to my radio ads. So to your point, he had engaged with my radio ads. He knew who I was. And when I called him, it was a way easier conversation to have than let me talk to a cold stranger who has never heard of me. And I now have to turn them into someone who's maybe interested in spending some time with me. So I love that idea of marketing or selling is being, as soon as someone engages with, you know, right now it's content, that's where the sales function can start.

[13:32] It may not, but if we're linear focused on, oh, until they hit the lead magnet, they're nothing to me.

[13:40] Yeah. That seems counterintuitive. Well, exactly. Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, sales, the job of sales is to connect people with a very specific need with the products or services that fulfill that need. I mean, absolutely. And so, you know, if that's the point and educating and asking questions and, you know, building rapport is all part of sales. Why does that need to start so far down their journey? Why can't it start the first time they watch a 30 second spot on YouTube from you? Right. So, yeah, that and the divisive, the divisiveness between sales and marketing historically creates an extremely expensive scenario.

[14:25] Right. Because they're not informing each other. There's no economies of scale. There's no, you know, shared costs as it relates to time and learning about the customer segment or actual hard costs paid out. So it's I mean, we're just wasteful. And I think that by connecting sales and marketing in this way, looking at it through the lens of customers on their path from a non-desired before state to an ideal after state as one journey that sales and marketing together facilitate, that's when we can tap into some of these economies of scale. That's amazing. And of course, we are always looking for economies of scale in whatever size of a business that you are and keeping that funnel consistently reliably full.

[15:05] Marketing is going to play a key role in that, whatever we are looking at. So if, if we said, okay, so we've talked about marketing and supporting sales,

[15:14] we've talked about, you know, Hey, sales leaders, here's a way to think about marketing. How can the sales team, in addition to what you've already shared, how can the sales team go back to marketing and, and support them in what they're doing? Because my sense is that marketing is doing what they think is working or what they think should work. And they're not getting anything from the sales team to give them any data back and forth. Am I offside on that? No, for sure. I don't know if this fully captures at all, but I have been thinking recently about our Google sheet that we have internally that maps out all of the 30 second commercials for the different customer segments. And this is like a living, breathing document where we have our top three 30-second commercials for the different segments that we pursue. And then like the bottom seven that are relevant, but they're not in the top three. And so I think what sales leaders can do is own that document and make sure that they and the sales team are updating it all the time based on new evidence they learned from talking to their segment and bring it back to marketing saying, hey, listen, like, you.

[16:24] The data is showing us that CEOs of this industry, we thought that they were pained by one, two, three. But what we're realizing, and this data supports it, is that they are pained by those things, but it's not the thing that gives them those cold chills at night. Can we adjust our messaging to align with what we're seeing in the data? Because we can't sell until we have established, until we've facilitated them saying, this is what I have pain about, right? And going deep on that. So I feel like the pain could be the central hub of integration between sales and marketing. And it's the responsibility of sales leader to make sure that that is actually what's showing up in market based on conversations. Brilliant. I also love what you shared with us about how you actually have a living playbook, right? You've got this living, breathing playbook that you're updating regularly based on on real interactions. Not, I think I should change my 30 second commercial today. And there's that, what is it? You know, people have to hear things four to seven times before they, or whatever that might be. So if we draw a line of this, sales goes back to marketing goes, Hey, the CEOs in this industry are telling us that they've got problem, a problem, B problem C like, and by the way, whether they're working with us or not, that's what they're telling us.

[17:42] Okay. So marketing goes and creates content, whatever that content might be. And all of a sudden CEOs in that industry are saying, oh, do you have problem A, problem B, or problem C? You should talk to fill in the name company. Then when the salesperson calls and says, hey, Caleb, we work with companies who are having trouble with problem A, problem B, problem C, you're already primed to have that conversation.

[18:05] Exactly, exactly, exactly. So the relationship that we need to change right now is what you alluded to earlier. Earlier sales will say, Hey, marketing, give us more leads and marketing saying, Hey, sales close, the leads we're giving you, but you know, yeah, there's a problem there. And so maybe you build, maybe what you do is you build a, we talk about cookbooks for the sales team, but maybe there's a cookbook that's shared and a version of a cookbook that's shared between, between both where it has.

[18:34] Yeah. I don't know. I love it. I love that idea. No, you're, you're, you're banging on something because, uh, in some of the companies that we've worked with when we, when we've built out sales processes for them, we bring in other departments, we'll bring in marketing, we'll bring in, you know, the shop, we'll bring in the finance group, et cetera, et cetera. And it's fascinating. Once you start to take the silos away or actually bring people together and the one side of the table goes, Oh, you actually want to know that information? I had no idea, we can easily go ask that question to gather that information for you. So what I'm hearing you say, Caleb, is how about we just talk to each other?

[19:12] Totally, totally. And teach each other because we learn by teaching. So like if the sales team can teach the marketing team how they're selling and vice versa, that's another thing. People support what they help create at the end of the day. And so if the marketing team can play a role in building the sales strategy and the sales team can have a role in building the marketing strategy. I just think that our thumbprints are on it and our willingness to support it through different mechanisms or ways will amplify. Yeah, it ties into when a prospect says to a salesperson, how about you go away and come back with a proposal? And the salesperson says, well, how about we build it together? Because now the prospect's owning it. Same thing from a leadership perspective. Let's get sales, marketing, operations, finance, whoever together, everybody's got the plan because as you said, your fingerprints are on it and you're much more likely to own it and execute on it and be open to iterating as opposed to, no, we already said that we're going to do this. It sounds a lot more collaborative.

[20:10] Is that fair? For sure. For sure. So Caleb, as you look at, you know, the relationship between sales and marketing and how marketing can support sales, eventually, you know, as a sales, as a leader, because you're the chief sales officer in your organization, right? You're the founder, so you're the chief sales officer.

[20:28] What are some early warning signs, some yellow flags that sales funnelers are going to get skinny for a sales person? Because I'm sure you've seen this with your clients where you've got a great marketing program and the sales team's just not delivering. What are some of those yellow flags that other sales leaders would want to watch out for that maybe they're going to have to have an awkward conversation 90 days from now? Yeah, it's a good question. We have, as most companies have, a very specific definition of who our ideal client is, our ideal customer. So one of the early signs is when some of these folks that aren't aligned with that fit make their way magically through just the initial fit call. Yep. And typically why that happens is because like, oh, listen, you know, like we got to get, you got to find a way to get these guys through the initial fit call, get them into the proposal conversation, because I don't have a lot of confidence there's a bunch in the hopper. Totally. And say it without...

[21:24] Being said i think that's one of the early signs whereas like if we're relentless about protecting the what we've built at hook and ladder and and the by only letting the right clients in for us that's saying at the same time that there's a whole bunch of apples on the tree we just gotta go pick pick from them right totally the other thing is taking a look at post-call reviews a lot of the times and this kind of goes hand in hand with the first example but taking a look at post-call reviews where there's a lot of like, um, compromise, compromising statements in there. So like, Hey, they didn't quite meet this, but they said they're going to meet this target. They don't have one to three employees, which is one of our one to three marketing employees, which is one of our requirements, but they're thinking about hiring in the fall. Okay. But so these are, these are kind of some examples. The other thing would be when ratios are, are getting out of whack. So like, you know, when you have your cookbook and you have your ratios, like for a simple term, like a hundred calls relate or goes down to two initial fit call or five initial fit calls goes down when the ratios are maintained and the numbers are low. That's not as big of an issue for me as when the ratios are starting to dissolve a little bit, because that means just anybody's in the, in the pipeline. And so quality over quantity.

[22:42] Fair enough. And, and it can be challenging, especially when we have growth targets to hit, whether it's for the board or the investors or even just ourselves, because, you know, we want to, we have a lifestyle to which we would like to maintain.

[22:54] Uh, but to your point about you got to keep filling the top of the funnel. Yeah. And the other point, sorry, Hamish, the other point is what we talked about before is like, just not doing those, um, those painful activities and those outbound painful activities. Like, Hey, we start hitting some, hitting some success as it relates to converting clients yeah maybe instead of maybe instead of 100 cold calls this week maybe i'm gonna do 40 right yeah whatever like that's an early sign for sure like whenever the cookbook that got you to the place where you're happy is being compromised there's going to be 90 day issues issues 90 days down the road or 60 days down the road totally was one of my coaches used to say to me oh it worked so you stopped doing it yeah yeah exactly and you know what i for anyone for everyone listening on this is like i'm speaking this as if like i'm all knowing all seeing like i'm the first one to do this as well or at least have these thoughts right because i'm a human and i don't like bugging people but i i'm also reframing it in my mind i'm not bugging them i'm i'm no i'm inquiring very quickly hey do you have a pain that we fix and if we can reformat that in our minds we can create a better relationship without bound, Absolutely. Absolutely. And what I've also found in especially, you know, marketing individuals, you know, people who work in marketing, you know, they tend to be very personable, very outgoing, etc, etc. Hopefully, I'm not saying anything that's offside.

[24:23] And you brought it up at the very beginning of our visit today is that idea of asking for introductions, like the those little simple things, it does not have to be cold calls, it does not have to be blasting out cold messages, it can be literally, hey, Hamish, do you know anybody who fits this profile? while. Oh yeah, Caleb, I know three of those people. Let me connect you. And then now we've got three conversations with at least acquaintances. I mean, they may not be friends quite yet, but at least it's a way easier conversation.

[24:50] So that's another thing that, that I hear from you in, in to take away that tough work is do the things that are get connections with people. So it reduces that, Oh my God, I got to call a stranger. Exactly. The last thing I had written down here as a thought in terms of an early warning sign of a lean pipeline is again similar to the first point but um the tone of not the tone but the nature of the of the initial discovery calls or initial fit calls for the client where we're jumping into prescription way too early where we're saying okay well what you mean is this right you mean you mean this it's not what i mean you know and skipping steps in like there's the reason for the the submarine just follow it yeah instead of letting water in and all of those things when they happen it's because there's a scarcity mentality at play and it's like the funnel is is lean totally and our clients or our prospects have a vision for the solution they have an idea of what their ideal state is otherwise they wouldn't have even called us because they would just be living with whatever the unideal state is or the not ideal state and becoming prescriptive too early when our salespeople are out there going, oh, here's what you need to do. They are not gathering the information. They're skipping the steps, like you said. And that ends up basically in a subtle way, telling the prospect, hey, you don't know what you're doing.

[26:12] That's why we're here. That's not a long-term solution for great rapport, is it? No, that's a good point. Yeah. Like, well, and again, they're not going to support it. They They didn't create it. You told them it. And anyways, that's a whole other. Well, and they don't own it. Like you said earlier, they don't own it, right? So then when it doesn't work or work to the way that they made up the story in their head, well, now it's your fault. And that's probably a, yeah, we're not renewing our agreement with you.

[26:37] So the best KPI for me for good funnels, a good indicator that the funnel is fat and juicy, is lots and lots of no's initiated by the sales professional. Amen, brother. Amen. And no now doesn't mean no forever, right? Like the example you gave about, hey, they're hiring in September. Awesome. Call them back in October and find out if they hired those people. And if they did, maybe we'll have a conversation. Yeah, totally. Totally. And no, maybe it's not, maybe I don't see an opportunity in the future, but that's why I spend a lot of time in building a good repertoire or roster of companies that would support them. Cause it's like, I want to use them for an intro at some point too. So it's like, Hey, no, not us, but yes to these guys. And in fact, I'm going to brief them on everything I've learned so that you can kind of keep your pace. And that's our job is to serve, right? Absolutely. And our credibility goes up when we say, Hey, not me, but I wonder if you would want to talk to this person and here's how they support based on this problem that you've shared with me. I think they could support you. That's right. So Caleb, as we're wrapping up our, or getting to the end of our visit today,

[27:45] let's rewind a little bit. And current Caleb gets to go back and talk to younger Caleb and say, Hey, guess what, Caleb, you're going to end up in 2022.

[27:57] You know, this is where your role is. You're a leader. You've got your own company. Here's how how you can avoid some bumps along the road to getting where you are today. What would you coach your younger self to do to maybe avoid some of those potholes or some of those bumps that you hit on the way to where you got to right now? Yeah, that's a good question. I think back in the day, I used to consider it a badge of honor that I could sell just through my charisma and cherry picking leads and, you know, just kind of like being Caleb. I'm just going to be Caleb. And what I wish I could have told myself is that, you know, sustainable and fulfilling selling requires a system and systems take a long time to build steam. It's like a flywheel, right? And so I'd have a lot of conversations with this person, but one of them would be, you know, just like get rid of this, this, this, this belief for ego based on such a small sample size of things that have worked and get started on building a system. Because you can enjoy the flywheel effect of that system later. That's going to be great, but it takes a long time to build this stuff. So get started on the non-sexy stuff, right? Picking up the phone, they ask you for introductions. Totally.

[29:14] That's what I would say. Doing the reps, right? You know, you're going to throw the ball through the tire a hundred times a day so you can hit those throws when you need to hit them. Exactly. Nice analogy there. It's close to my heart. I thought it might be. And those of you who are listening, if you're wondering, go check out Caleb's LinkedIn profile. You can find out what that means. A little Easter egg for all of you. So Caleb, what are you, you are a professional and personal development guy.

[29:40] I've known that about you since we started, since we first connected. What are you reading, listening to, watching right now that is supporting your professional and personal development that some of the audience might want to check out as well? Well, I'll start with, and I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, but the Full Funnel Freedom podcast, absolutely. That was an unplanned audience.

[30:00] And I subscribe to all the Sandler Weekly stuff. I think there's some good nuggets in there. I reread You Can't Teach a Kid to Ride, like almost monthly. I actually just read and really enjoyed sell like you would like to be sold to, or I can't remember the, I'll figure it out and send it through. But the other thing that I'm reading a lot is profit first. And the idea with profit first, of course, as everyone knows, is if you go with the old formula, revenue minus expenses equals profit. The problem is there's no profit left. So take out what you want first and get creative with what's remaining. Totally. So not exactly sales focused, but yeah. And then actually one other guy I want to mention is two other things really quickly. One is I'm just surrounding myself with a whole bunch of different sales professionals and other industries. And I kind of commit to, for each of them, a monthly hookup, 30 minutes. We share tips and tricks. That's it. They're not necessarily all Sandler trained, but some of them are. And then there's a guy named Benjamin in the UK called the UK's most hated sales trainer. Go on YouTube. it's pretty funny clearly he's very Sandler inspired um.

[31:13] But yeah, that's a couple of examples. Love it. And I've actually implemented Profit First in my organization for several years. Read it a bunch of years ago, shared it with a bunch of my colleagues, and they've all implemented it and are doing really cool things. So Profit First, if you've never heard of that book, it's Michael Michalowicz. And I'm a huge fan of that book as well. So take a look at it. And as Caleb mentioned, it flips the common formula. So you end up having some profit, which is a nice thing to be, especially if you're in that business owner position. So Caleb, I want to say thank you very much for sharing your insights with us

[31:48] around marketing and sales and how they can work together. I look forward to having you again on the podcast in the future. Awesome. Thanks, Amish. You've been listening to the full Funnel of Freedom podcast.

[31:57] Today, we've been getting ideas and insights from Caleb Clark, co-founder and chief partnership officer at Hook and Ladder Digital around how marketing and sales can work together. The full Funnel of Freedom podcast is is brought to you by Sandler Calgary. If you're tired of consultants telling you what you need to do to scale, but not helping you out with the how, Sandler has the what's and will help you out with the hows. Go to hamish.sandler.com forward slash how to Sandler for more details and to book an introductory call. If you'd like to be a guest or a sponsor of the Full Funnel Freedom podcast, email podcast at fullfunnelfreedom.com. Thanks for listening. Give us a rating or review. you. And until we connect with you on the next episode, go create Full Funnel Freedom.

[32:45] Thank you for listening to Full Funnel Freedom with Hamish Knox. If you want to increase your sales with ease, go to fullfunnelfreedom.com.

[32:56] Music.