Extreme Curiosity

[0:00] Being a sales leader at startup is a lonely place, so it's always nice to hear somebody who's potentially suffering from the same problems might solve those problems or still battling on with the same problems that you're facing today. Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom podcast. If you are listening to this, you are likely leading a team responsible for generating revenue. The purpose of Full Funnel Freedom is to support people like yourself and keep your funnels consistently, reliably full.

[0:30] Music.

[0:36] Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom podcast. I'm your host, Hamish Knox. Today, I am delighted to have Neil Harkins as my guest. Neil is a self-styled renaissance sales leader and a glutton for punishment. He enjoys the challenge of building a predictable revenue function at companies who are also trying to figure out their product market fit he has built transformational revenue teams in both europe and the u.s and thrives in a team with a strong sense of purpose who care deeply about the success of their customers and impact on the world he has spent the last 10 years dedicated to selling to non-profits knowing that if we can make his clients just five percent more effective then they might just change the world. Neil, welcome to Full Funnel Freedom. Hamish, thank you very much for having me. Delighted to be here. So I've given the audience the 30,000-foot view of you and your story. Take us down a level. Tell us where you got started and how you got to where you are today. So I got started with Experian in a real telesales environment. You know, it was 100 calls a day, three and a half hours on the phone. It was selling to sole traders. I remember Floris was actually my little niche. And I mean, I loved it. I think I got the buzz from sales having, speaking to somebody on the phone who wants rid of you to get them to take action and sign a deal at the end of the week. What was a really big rush and you know, it's ultimately something that was going to help.

[2:01] Yeah, and I think I also learned, you know, at that stage, it was really about activity and a positive mindset. And then I'll say, so that was my first year at Experian in this graduate scheme. I graduated to full field sales and I got a bit of a shock. I learned that just the activity and positive mindset wasn't going to get me through on my own. And that there was a whole lot of science, skill set and structure to sales. And fortunately, they had a fantastic training program and, you know, really got me on the right foot. So, yeah, from there, one of the things I discovered at Experian and a couple of other companies at Salesforce, I really like this idea of selling into blue ocean. So the blue ocean versus the red ocean. The blue ocean is where like new product and kind of the opposite of commoditized. And so I knew that that was something that really excited me. And I'd kind of worked at these bigger organizations and we were either launching new products or acquiring new businesses in there. So I realized that was one of my niches and through that I ended up at a company called Blackbaud who actually specialize in, they're the largest technology provider to nonprofits and exclusively to nonprofits.

[3:06] And really got the opportunity there with businesses they were acquiring or new technologies they're launching. So originally my accent is not from the US. I started out life in the UK, but I had the opportunity. they bought businesses kind of from different parts of the world so had the opportunity to launch them and fully kind of integrate them into the wider blackboard machine um so i'd like to say these were kind of it was like an incubated startup right because i had all the fun stuff of discovering the new market trying to find fit but had all the assets of a big company and then from there i'll really say that ignited my passion as you heard in the introduction of working with non-profits i do really believe in this idea that if we can make non-profits more successful successful, we've got a chance at changing the world. So I've really stayed there, but now I've leaned full more into just startup mode. I took off the training wheels of having some of the assets and the resources that a big company would have. And for the last three or four years, I've just gone straight into non-profit startup land.

[4:05] And really where I am today is net new products. I'm chief of sales, but chief of one person who is myself. So I'm building out this sales team, the playbook, and we're really trying to find product market fit as well and who our right clients are. So it's very, very early stage. And also a lot of moving parts. One of the things that we talked about offline

[4:27] was like flying the plane while you're building it, I think is something I heard. And so for our audience of sales leaders, most of whom are in more established organizations, help us understand that mindset that you have to have related to the fact that you have something to sell. You may not necessarily know who to sell it to, or even if you think you know who to sell it to, it might not be the right thing for those people so how do you put on you know your sword and your shield every day and go out there as a team of one when there's a lot of moving parts right now yeah and i'd say i'd even extend the analogy a little bit further it's like building the plane that's fine but when you need to build like a predictable revenue funnel you need to build the plane and make sure that it runs on time both of those things to do are hard to do independently and and i think to your your Your question, and I mean, the mindset, the renaissance salesperson is a term I use because you're almost a little bit like a product manager as well, right? And I think that's really the mindset that I encourage you. And it's a lot of the things that I think great salespeople have, but it's extreme curiosity.

[5:33] Because a lot of the time, the product is a little bit squishy. You don't know exactly what you're selling. So what you really have to understand is what are the problems that you're trying to solve? And the many levels you really need to go deeper to understand those problems. And I think that is a really critical mindset. I love that idea of extreme curiosity. We've heard about extreme ownership before, extreme curiosity.

[5:59] What would that look like in practice? this? Because we don't want to interrogate our buyers. Our buyers don't want to feel like it's the Spanish Inquisition, to use a very current Monty Python reference. How do we have extreme curiosity while also balancing the fact that the buyer just doesn't want to feel like they're being interrogated by someone who's trying to come up with something to sell them? Yeah, and I've actually been feeling my way around this at the moment. It's really difficult when you're new to the market just to get a conversation to ask people questions. So I think one of the things that we're trying to balance is showing them like a little bit of the product and then weaving in your discovery questions to that piece because they're not joining a call for you to give them the spanish inquisition and i've done that and you can sense the awkwardness totally i've done too where they're like you need to give them some framework of where you're going but this is where the real careful balance is because you also can't bias them with the product sure as well right because then you can some sometimes fall into like your You're showing them the product and they're telling you a little bit of what you maybe want to hear or they think is polite in that time. So it's a careful line that you need to tread of like showing them enough without leading them too much down the garden path. And I think we've always had this concept early on of having like three real killer questions that you can ask. So I'll tell you, one of them is if you attach and find a pain, what are you actually doing today to try and solve this pain?

[7:27] Are you paying money to solve the pain? Do you have a solution to it? Or is there a process? Because very often, you know, we as salespeople, you may find this little nugget of pain and you think because they, you know, they kind of agree to it and it's there. It's like a big thing. Right. If it's a big thing in their world, I find that that question is incredibly helpful. Also paired with what happens in six months time if you don't make any progress on this pain? Great questions. they don't have strong answers to that i'd say it's really not pain that's worth diving into and particularly if that's what your product solves you can potentially cut that conversation very very short that's very much about saving time when or spending our time with the right people right so when we've got sellers who are just like blowing and going and diving into demos and and all those kinds of things without really understanding like is this something they care about or are they just telling us something as you said politely uh so that we spill our guts But well, all of our buyers are trained to do that anyway. So when we do run into those kind of conversations or maybe the product is like part of the way there, it's not all the way there to solve what the buyer is looking for. But there is a roadmap. And I've been on that side with the SaaS platform. How do we effectively manage a conversation with a buyer? So as you said, we don't lead them too far down the garden path. and if there is a roadmap for the future we still can come back to them in the future and go hey we didn't have it before now we've got it can we talk again.

[8:55] Yeah, I mean, I think that's just be very open and honest up front, right? Where you get yourself into trouble in these conversations, which again is something I've done where you try and make it feel like you're further beyond than you are. And actually, if someone wants a more established product, that's a great thing to qualify them out early on. You know, in the kind of classic Jeffrey Moore adoption curve, you're really looking for those early adopters. Right. And they tend to be people who are a little bit comfortable with that ambiguity and realize that it might not all be there. And these people are great because they actually want to be part of finding the solution with you as well. So I'd say to prevent that from happening, being very clear of like the stage you're at early on and that it might not be all baked out is kind of critical to setting the table for that conversation.

[9:45] And I think that in turn then opens the door for coming back later when the product might be fully baked out. And you probably understand specifically from that conversation what they need

[9:56] to see in the product for you to be able to have that conversation. So if that is something you've been able to develop with the product, then you have a very warm lead to be able to come back to later. We want to hear your burning questions about sales and sales management, management. Whether you're curious about strategies, challenges, or career advice, send us your questions. We'll be addressing them in one of our upcoming episodes, providing ideas and insights to help you excel in your sales career. You can submit your questions in the link in the show notes. So don't hesitate, shoot your questions our way and help shape a future discussion. Thanks for listening to Full Funnel Freedom.

[10:38] Very fair. And I'm curious, because as a sales leader and you have been in a role where you have a team and now you're building a team starting with yourself, as we all do in an early stage organization, it must have a lot of anxiety attached to it to disqualify early because you've still got to sell stuff. You've still got to make money. You've still got to fund the beast, even though you might have funding from investors. So how do we balance that disqualifying early with also keeping our funnel full so that when our investors are looking at how are we progressing, we actually have something to show them? Yeah. And if I'm totally honest, I don't know if I have like completely got that balance yet. That's part of this dance of trying to balance product market bet with their predictable deal flow. I think, though, to help yourself on the pressure side of things. So while you might not always be making progress on the revenue side, you know, sometimes that can take a bit longer to stack up, but you can be making progress on the learning side of things. So really trying to like standardize what you've learned from the market and how that can inform a more repeatable process. I find it something when you have investors or board making sure that you're communicating that piece back. So while the revenue might not be there, you know, we're learning a lot on top of that at the moment. And this is how, you know, that is going to help us build a more predictable funnel later on.

[12:05] Amen. I have long maintained with my team, with my clients, that some information is better than no information. Because under no information, I start making up stories probably about what you're not doing. And then I'm going to get mad at you for a story that I made up in my head. So sales leaders, you know, take Neil's advice. Whether you are in a product market fit company or you're an established company, you got to let people know what's going on. The ones who you report to, because then at least, you know, you can, you have a story to tell if the revenue is not necessarily quite where they thought it might be, but you've got a lot of other cool things on the go. Neil, taking that learning further, it sounds like you're, you're taking in information, you're iterating on your, on your sales process, your revenue cycle, and then going back out, retesting. How are you, how do you keep going with what's working And then adding in things and then potentially dropping something that was working now, but is not working three to six months later.

[13:05] Yeah. And I mean, my approach to testing, and it actually comes a lot from the product side, it's a framework called value proposition design. Okay. But it really focuses on changing one thing at the time, right? You come up with a hypothesis, so you can come up with your initial hypothesis, which is everything. But then to test, you have to be very disciplined with one thing at the time, because if you're constantly changing everything to your point, you don't know which worked, which might not have worked. And so you as a salesperson almost need to think about product person, right? There's like cycles and this cycle and at the moment we've even run to two week to a month cycle We're gonna try this or this piece of messaging very isolated to see how this is works, Here is and you say as well like if this works We expect to see X Y & Z and this is how we're going to measure it and that Allows you then to start to like hone in on those pieces that are working and not working so that you're not constantly changing the complete process every time, which I think is a trap a lot people can fall into when something is not working. Fallen into that trap a couple of times in my life.

[14:13] So you can see results within like a two-week trial. Is that what I heard? You can see real results in your sales? You can be very focused with your testing. And sometimes the revenue is a lagging indicator, care right so of course metric is ultimately going to be revenue i'd argue that that's probably not a good metric to test on but what we can start to test on let's say like it's messaging what are the response rates the open rates to these messaging are they actually moving through to an open so the big part of it is finding those right metrics to test on and like as i said revenue is a really tough one to touch totally these things over a short period of time yeah i mean depending on the sales cycle but generally that's a lag metric so you have to be good at finding you know within your funnel or some of those metrics a little bit further up the stream that we can impact with those testing uh now wow well you know if we say that 52 weeks out of the year like that in two week cycles that's a lot of a test we could potentially run a lot of iterations and i that's not literal that's just simply dividing 52 by two uh yeah so as we as we move forward and not to maybe talk about some of your, your experience in,

[15:24] in, in previous organizations. So as you move forward, you've started with building a plane that's flying.

[15:31] You've started to find some product market fit. Where's that inflection point where as a leader, you feel like you need to add a resource to your team to support you in getting up to that next level?

[15:43] Yeah, I mean, I'd say you're talking about sales resource primarily. Yeah. I think the important thing to do is like capacity planning beforehand. And I actually just went through this with my new leader now. Having done this before and not done the capacity planning, you're trying to make like game day decisions. Based on a moment of time like do we need more resource so i actually did this time was look through i looked at like my own capacity and some like revenue models to see like if we were to add more now and i'm going to be you know at capacity at this point what are specifically like the number of deals that i can manage now and like when and how do we need more people so my advice on that is so you're not making a game day decision have that written down and agreed before And it's also like if you can come after a bad day and ask for a hire because you're feeling kind of overworked or overwhelmed, it's not a great conversation to have with leadership. But if you have agreed before, look, here were the metrics specifically that we felt that we needed to hit on the capacity plan. We've now hit those, so we need to activate the next phase of hiring. You know, more than what that does is you can see where you're ultimately going to hit the wall at some point. But maybe two or three weeks or two or three months, whatever it might be before that, you're getting a sense that you're coming close to there and the momentum's getting you there so you can start the hiring process a bit faster.

[17:06] I think we've all made mistakes of when you need a hire tomorrow, is that hire going to be the best hire? Have you had time to do recruitment right? Probably not. So factoring that into the capacity plan as well, I think, is really valuable. Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. I'm very much about proactive versus reactive. And even though it might feel like, well, why am I building out a plan to hire a sales resource, whether that's a sales admin resource or a sales rev ops resource or an actual seller? or why am I doing that six months in advance? Well, it's for exactly the reasons that you just laid out is we're not going to make a reactive game day decision that may end up blowing up in our face and set us further back than we were previously. Yeah, fair enough. So what was that process that you went through? You looked at the capacity for your ability to manage deals and manage resources. What other components do you factor in as a sales leader when you're looking at that resource planning, whether it's for yourself or whether you're looking at, you've got a team and you might want to expand that team what are some of the other factors that you put in to that resource planning i mean a big one is on the like deal velocity and actually look at like every element of the deal and i mean at the moment i've got spreadsheets with exactly how much time i'm spending on everything because a piece of it is like we have to make that a little bit more efficient but like down to like how much time am i actually um spending to prep calls and all the other pieces to it. So I think getting very granular on that time piece is very, very important.

[18:35] And I mean, then the other thing is always like looking forward at the revenue plan, right? Because you have to grow into a number. And I think it's balancing like, what are those future revenue projections? So even if you're not at capacity at the moment, if you have a revenue plan, which you're not gonna get to today, you know, that has to be a factor into it as well. and you've got to add some warm bodies in there to help you get in there. Very true. Very true. Yeah. And again, that idea of planning and being proactive

[19:05] so we're not making those reactive game time decisions is really, really critical. So the next layer, of course, is you've got a sales resource and a seller, right? And one of the things that I've noticed is sometimes sales leaders who were the team of one, they bring in a resource, but then they become super rep. And they're not actually giving their sellers the freedom to run and the freedom to grow so that the person can actually be a sales leader. What are some of the best practices you've implemented over the course of your career to extricate yourself from the day-to-day selling activities and remain up at that true leadership level? Yeah, and it's difficult to do. And I mean, I'll even see it at my level where the founders have been leading a lot of sales. So I've had to extricate them from the process.

[19:55] Yes but i think a big part of it is a mindset piece where you have to be comfortable right for people to learn on the job they're going to have to learn from a little bit of failure as well sure you always feel that you've got to come in there and white knight when a deal's not going right and you know that can be difficult at certain startups where like you get a small number of enterprise deals and it's like a very high stakes game true but if you're kind of constantly coming in and you know sales leaders i've been in this category to have a habit of sometimes taking over that deal cycle and the customers are gravitating to speaking to them and all of a sudden, the rep is just scheduling calls and following up on emails.

[20:33] That's going to be a slow time for them to learn. So I think mindset wise, being very comfortable that you're probably going to lose deals that you might have won before to let the reps go off. And I mean, I think one thing now that I'm incredibly excited about, and I've already started to doing it, is building that library of calls, like the conversational intelligence, yeah being a rep up to speed you know i've heard some of your other guests talk about this from a coaching perspective but i think about after like almost every single call i have if somebody was coming into the organization what could they learn from this and i go back into the call i tag it i put it in specific pieces in the library knowing that one day it's gonna somebody's gonna come in and they're really gonna have access to all these kind of conversations and why i also really like that is in a small company onboarding people can take a huge amount of your time and just like scheduling it and giving them things to do and feeling like they may be not having things to do now though, if you're like, here are.

[21:31] Here's a hundred hours of customer content where you can like learn things and have an opinion is a great thing to give someone who's a bit of a self-starter to, to just come in without you feeling like you've, you know, got to spend a lot of time on, on their kind of one-on-one on that onboarding. It's a lot of stuff that they can do on their own very true i'm so glad you brought up onboarding because as you were sharing about like you got to let them fail which i 100 agree with right if if we continually rescue them they're never going to learn uh because we do learn by scar tissue although sometimes we'd like to accelerate it and i was curious about what are some of your best practices to support your sellers in avoiding some of the scar tissue that they might otherwise stumble their way into. So I love this idea of the library, the tags, the here's where you can learn this. What are some of the other things that you have done to support your sellers

[22:24] in getting from day one to ready to rock and roll, run on their own?

[22:29] I mean, I think the exposure to the customers, and maybe it's a bit of a repetition of my earlier point, is that failing on their own. I just personally feel that kind of like getting them out and in front of those conversations and and learning from the customers and making sure that they've got space to like indulge their own curiosity and ask questions and in fact on that note the customer time if you've got like a warm five to ten customers like go ahead and set up like an hour two hour long conversation with them where they can those customers are like comfortable sharing insight sharing the jobs pains and gains of their role and just really like helping them to understand what that customer does um and that Something I love to do, and I don't know if we do it as much in these environments, but I've heard organizations who actually go, like you almost become like an intern. If you lack some of that domain knowledge, you know, if there's a warm customer, you go in and you sit and you shadow them and help them with their job for like a couple of weeks. Wow.

[23:26] I don't know how practical that is. So in my mind, you know, that conversation with the customer to really get them up in speed, because I think that's what I really want them to learn. Like, how does that buyer think? And, you know, in the nonprofit is a very specific domain. So if people are coming and not having that domain experience, you really have to shorten that flashed bang of them, like understanding what these people's roles are. Very fair and and also that's it guys back to that extreme curiosity that you shared earlier about like help me understand your world like what is what do you do day to day what is your world like what are the challenges you're facing and that's a human to human conversation that's a sales conversation that's like genuine i want to understand your world so i can understand whether or not i might even have something that can help you or not yeah precisely um and i think I think quickly what I've noticed in that one is they start to build, you know, experienced sellers in a certain domain. They have their bank of stories. Right. And that's the way of them opening up discovery or like sharing something. You're sharing a pain to get pain. That whole mentality. When you come into a new place, if it's a new product or domain, you don't have any of that stuff. So very quickly helping them with those those customer stories.

[24:39] I'll say the other thing I've really tried to do and be diligent on to sort of send that elevator down is on like the CRM. Okay, but making sure like you've got the pains feels filled out all the things that you didn't really like doing as a reps the concerns And i've been trying to think in my head of like how do I standardize this as much as possible? So right now i'm kind of putting free text in there But slowly i'm starting to think of like okay. Well, these pains are all falling into a fairly similar category So can I start to like standardize some of that in our crm? So rather than when a new rep comes in and it's like well It could be any type of pain that we're searching for I can say There's these five things that we are listening to here. Yes.

[25:21] And I think that's a big one as well. So I'm really trying to think about like forward to like CRM health and how can someone even come in and look at a deal on the sales record and see exactly from that deal. Oh, I know what the pain was, what the outcome they were looking for. And I think that's tremendously helpful to somebody new coming in.

[25:39] Totally. It's reducing that time to self-sufficiency, right? We all have to support our new team members when they come on board with learning the stories and learning the pains and learning all of that event. We need them to be self-sufficient, which means they can just perform without us sitting on their shoulder or sitting on their desk as, and if we can shrink that, that's a really brilliant idea of leveraging your CRM, which is something we want them to use anyways, to, to actually, you know, go, Hey, this is a learning tool. It's, and not only just a database for you. what a what a brilliant idea neil thank you for sharing that with our audience today uh i do have a few questions for you before we wrap up today uh the first one being if you could go back and coach younger neil go back as far as you like and go hey younger neil in the future you are going to have had this amazing career as a sales leader and working with all these incredible startup companies you are also going to have a lot of scar tissue and bumps and bruises what would you coach younger neil to say or do differently that allows you to arrive at the same place but with a little less scar tissue and maybe fewer bumps and bruises you know probably a lot of people have said this or i feel like they do say this but for me personally something that held me back when i was younger and probably in the career is this failure fear of fear of failure right so you don't do something because you're too worried about like it not working back and like you know early on um i think some of that is down to like insecurity you have it's It's like, but also like more now I didn't want to do something last week because I didn't think it would work.

[27:09] And actually when I went into the real reason for it is because I was worried that I was going to spend some time on it and it wouldn't work so that it was going to be in, you know, inefficient and a great question. I always find myself when I'm in that phase of like, do I not want to do this? Um, because I'm worried about it not working. It's like, what is the ultimate downside? Right. Hmm. And if that isn't a big deal and it's something that you can live with and the size of the prize is like big enough, then I think that always encourages you to go down that right. If you do feel failure, you should actually almost like run towards it. Getting through that and learning is there's so much growth in that process.

[27:46] What a brilliant insight for our audience. Thanks for sharing that with us, Neil. I'm curious, what have you read, watched or listened to, whether it's recently or in the past that you'd like the audience of sales leaders around the world to check out as well for their own development? Yes and specifically as it relates to product and early stage i think there's two books i'd recommend one of them is called the mom test by rob fitzpatrick yeah and that's really um all about entrepreneurs and early stages company how they find if they've got product market fit but i think there is so much great stuff in there for sales people as well of asking those like deeper questions that we've discussed a little bit the other thing i find really useful is like if you want to build a good relationship with your product team, recommending them to read their book so you can talk about it and understand a little bit about who your product team approach discovery.

[28:37] Because I think there's a lot you can accomplish when you're really aligned on the same page of the discovery questions that you're asking and, you know, you can scale their resource to be in customer conversations with questions that they want to know. And then the other one that I found tremendously helpful was a book called Finder Sales by Peter Kisangy. I hope that I pronounced that right. But I think that's just like a really, it's designed to be a very simple overview of sales for our founders. And I really enjoy like a lot of the simplicity in it. And I think it talks like a bunch of sense. And again, if you're at the early stage and working with a founder or CEO who might not be educated in sales, that's something I said to my founder. Let's have a read about it, talk about it together and kind of like understand how we both think about sales. So that I found it generates some really good conversations.

[29:26] Very cool. So we'll put links to both those books in the show notes. Thank you very much for those recommendations, Neil. The last question I have for you is, what do you have as a closing thought, a final bit of wisdom, or even something to plug? The floor is yours. So I'll go for the plug. As I mentioned, I'm a new company and chief of sales,

[29:44] so I want to use this opportunity. So it's probably a small subset, but if there's anybody on here who works for a nonprofit or is part of the board of nonprofit, you'll know that one of your most critical sources of funding is from grants.

[29:58] And one of the big challenges is, like, how do you identify new funders? And if you've got your sales hat on, you have a lot of, like, prospecting tools out there in the market that are good at finding sales prospects based on kind of alignment, relationships. And that's exactly what our tool, Impala, does, but for nonprofits to find funders. That would be my plug. Perfect. We'll certainly put a link to Impala in the show notes as well. So sales leaders listening, you probably know someone who is on a not-for-profit board. Encourage them to listen to

[30:35] this episode and then check out Impala and the product that Neil provides. Neil, really enjoyed our conversation. I loved our chat when we first connected and so glad we got to connect today to share your ideas and insights with the sales leaders around the world who listen to Full Funnel Freedom. Thank you for being our guest today. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure, Hamish.

[30:58] Sales leaders, I love this idea of extreme curiosity. It totally resonates with me. I'm so glad that Neil shared that with us today and also framed it in a way of like it can't turn into an interrogation. And I have made that mistake multiple times in my sales career where my buyer eventually is like, I feel like I'm being tortured by your questions. Like, what are you doing here? So it does need to be conversational. and especially when we are a newer organization or we have a newer product or established organization with a newer product we we have to show the buyer something uh and we also want to make sure our sellers don't go too far down the path and i i've probably told this story on the podcast previously when i was doing it when i got a sass roll added to my portfolio uh years ago one of the first conversations I had with one of my current clients was them extremely firing me because the previous seller had sold them on a feature of our platform that didn't exist until nine months into their initial 12-month agreement.

[32:13] So that conversation was unpleasant for me and I learned a lot and it really ties into what Neil was sharing about we can't take the buyer too far down the path so they start making up stories about what the product could be and that is a function of keeping our funnel full. The fuller our funnel is at the top, the less likely our sellers are to get overly stuck on one opportunity. Opportunity i also really like neil's insight around how we can do like two week tests on a messaging and what is that leading indicator that we're looking for and at the top of the funnel it's really often about conversations how many first conversations ever are our sellers getting so let's set up a two-week trial our baseline is this we want it to be we want the results to be this and now we want to run that experiment and see what we get and continue to iterate on it instead of waiting on a lagging indicator that may end up costing our job if the experiment does not go as well as we wanted. Those were my big takeaways from today's episode. I'd love to hear yours in the comments on our social media. So please leave them for us there. And until we connect on the next episode, go create full funnel freedom.

[33:25] Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Full Funnel Freedom podcast. You can continue to support us by leaving us a review and a rating, sharing this episode with a couple of sales leaders in your network who you care about i'd love to connect with you i'm easy to find hamish knox on linkedin also if you'd like a free 15-minute call with me go to www.hamish.sandler.com forward slash how to sandler until we connect on the next episode go create full funnel freedom.

[33:58] Music.