What is Deep Listening For Sales Leaders

[0:04] This is the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast, supporting sales leaders and managers to improve their sales funnels from people to prospects. I'm Hamish Knox. In this show, you'll learn how you can improve your results, lead a great team, and hit more targets with Full Funnel Freedom.

[0:22] Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Hamish Knox. Today, we're getting ideas and insights on listening for sales leaders from leading listening expert, Oscar Trimboli. Oscar is the author and host of the award-winning Apple podcast, Deep Listening. Excited to record with Oscar today. I've learned a ton from his content and I'm very excited to have him join us today. The Full Funnel Freedom podcast is brought to you by Sandler Calgary. Are you tired of consultants and coaches only telling you what you need to do to scale your business. Sandler supports you not only with the what to do, but will also support you with the how to do it. So Oscar Trimboli is not only the author and host of the Apple award-winning podcast, Deep Listening, he is a sought after keynote speaker and is passionate about using the gift of listening to bring positive changes to homes, workplaces, and cultures worldwide. wide. Through his work with chairs, boards of directors, and executive teams, Oscar has experienced firsthand the transformational impact listening can have when leaders listen beyond words.

[1:39] He believes that when leadership teams focus their attention and listening, they will build organizations that create powerful legacies for the people they serve today, and more importantly for future generations. Oscar is a marketing and technology industry veteran working for Microsoft, PeopleSoft, Polycom, and Vodafone. He consults with organizations including American Express, AstraZeneca, Cisco, Google, HSBC, IAG, Mont Blanc, PwC, Salesforce, Sanofi, SAP, and Siemens. Oscar loves his afternoon walks with his wife, Jenny, and their dog, Kilimanjaro. On the weekends, you will find him playing Lego with one or all four of his grandchildren.

[2:20] Oscar, welcome to Full Funnel Freedom. G'day Hamish, looking forward to listening to your questions and thank you for taking the time out to listen to me. I'm looking forward to listening to your responses as well. So Oscar, I'm going to jump off the page and go to something where we think of, well, listening, isn't that just We just do that, right? How did you come to listening as a powerful, transformative force that eventually turned into your award-winning podcast and book? We have to go way back to 2008 in April. In fact, it's the annual budget setting meeting Microsoft, and it's a video conference between Seattle, Sydney, and Singapore. And there's 18 people on this video conference, the meeting schedule to go for 90 minutes. and it's pretty critical. Setting the corporate budget for the year has an impact on quotas for salespeople. But more importantly, if you get it right, they're set up for success. If you get it wrong, the rest of the year becomes really painful. At the 20-minute mark, my senior vice president, who was across the table, looked me straight in the eye and said, Oscar, I need to speak to you immediately after this meeting. And in my head, Hamish, the only thing going through my head was how many weeks of salary have I got left? How much have I got in the bank account?

[3:38] Because it was completely out of context, the point that was made. The meeting actually finished early. The meeting finished at the 70-minute mark, and everyone kind of shuffled out of the room, and Tracy asked me to close the door. I was like, great, I'm getting fired in private. And as I walked across the room to sit back next to Tracy, she says, you have no idea what you did at the 20-minute mark. And in my head, I'm going, great, I'm getting fired. And I have no idea what I did at the 20 minute mark. As I sat down, Tracy looked me in the eye and said, if you could code the way you listen, you could change the world. And honestly, in that moment of profound insight and skillful, nuanced listening that Tracy had made, the only thing going through my head was, woohoo, I'm being fired.

[4:28] And from that point on, I've committed to the task of coding how to listen because one One of the very brief conversations I had with Tracy immediately after that, when you said code, Tracy, do you mean code or code code? As in, do you mean software or do you mean write it in a methodology? And she said, no, Oscar, we work at Microsoft. I expect you to code it. So three weeks later, the Australian budget setting process was taking place. And Brian, the CFO, came to me two days before the meeting and said, Oscar, I need you to audit my listening. I just laughed at Brian and I said, Brian, you've been talking to Tracy, haven't you? And he said, yeah. He says, can you audit my listing? I said, Brian, you gave me a 32% increase on my budget line. And I was running the largest product line at Microsoft at that time in Australia. And for a billion US dollars, 32%, it's a lot of biscuits. I said, I've got to figure out how to make budget on this increased budget. it. And I haven't got time for this listening caper. And Brian said, and thank goodness I listened to him. Brian said, now this is important for sales leaders to understand. Brian said to me, Oscar, I can't fix the top line, but if you help me listen, we can probably do something about our investment profile for your part of the business. Exactly. So as somebody who's carrying a fairly significant organization.

[5:57] A fairly hefty number. I was all ears. Sure, Brian, what time's your meeting in two days time? I'll be there to audit your listening. And again, it was a best part of 90 minute meeting with all the sales leaders around the country, all via video conference. And I started like, wow, he asks a lot of complicated questions. They're multi-part questions.

[6:22] He's answering questions that I don't think people have asked. Gee, he interrupts a lot. There's 11 people on this call, but he's only heard from three. Oh, my goodness. Here I am. I'm coding how to listen. So this is where we started off. Very cool. And now we're on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the world because a very good friend of mine said to me, Oscar, if you can achieve your quest in your lifetime, it's not big enough. So I initially started out at a million deep listeners and then I moved to 10 million deep listeners, but Matt challenged me and he said, get a bigger goal or go home. And a hundred million deep listeners is a great compass setting for me because it.

[7:03] I always have to think about for one unit of my time, how can I multiply that? I think the same is true for sales leaders as well. A lot of times we get asked questions by our team that aren't questions just from that team member. The rest of our teams also have that question. So think about how do you capture that question and play it back to the whole group as well as the person who asked it as well. So one of the things we've been able to do, we've coded the five levels of listening and many, many, many, many hours of research. We've got over 18,000 people in our database now who've taken the listening assessment quiz, which is another way we help to code listening. But more importantly, give people a way to get an insight into what the barriers to their listening is, whether it's interrupting, whether it's problem solving, whether it's trying to be the centre of attention or whether you're completely lost or distracted. And we have four different villains of listening. So that's how we started off. I love it. And let's circle back on that. There's a bit of a cliche about, you know, if one person asks you a question, there's probably at least three or four other people who have the same question. They're just maybe not confident enough or brave enough or don't know how to ask or whatever that might be. So from your experience working with leaders at very, very high levels of very, very large organizations, How can a leader...

[8:31] Play back a question to a team without selling out the person who asked it and then maybe also not making the whole team wildly uncomfortable. When we talk about five levels of listening, we talk about listening to yourself, listen to content, listen to context, listen to unsaid, and finally listen for meaning. And the question you've asked me, I suspect, is a question that So it starts at level two, listening to the content, the individual person, but then moves up to level three, listening to the context. One thing that will differentiate and help you understand as a sales leader, when you're listening, are you listening for symptoms or are you listening for systems? Because often in this context where you don't want to out somebody's ask the question, honestly, Obviously, Hamish, there are very few occasions where that question doesn't have a systems implication.

[9:31] And by system, I don't mean CRM alone. Yes, that is a system. But a system is a group of entities. It could be people, could be customers, could be suppliers, could be subcontractors, could be a whole group of different contexts interacting with each other. So a simple example might be, Hamish, I'm always running into the same competitive objection. Every time competitor B comes into our customers, they get in early. They get that thing that stops us from talking about our value proposition, about X, Y, Z, because in the past, we've had a historical issue with competition.

[10:13] Blah, blah. So that might be the question that somebody poses to you. Now, the easiest thing to do in that context is to answer their question. And depending on the maturity of the salesperson you're dealing with, that might be a totally appropriate approach. If they're slightly more mature as a salesperson, you might ask them, what have you tried? But the suspicion is really simply, if you've got six to 10 salespeople in your organization, they're all going to get that kind of objection. So you don't have to out that person and say, look, Cynthia asked me yesterday, how do we deal with Competitor B? As opposed to in a team meeting, you could say Competitor B is consistently attacking us before a meeting with this. As a group, let's just have a chat. How do you overcome it? What have you all tried? So you're taking a very systems orientation, you're opening up the power of the group to answer that question. Sometimes you may not. Sometimes you may need to lead that conversation. But rather than lead the conversation to say, say this, say that, and then finally say this, one of the things you want to understand is does that actually matter to the customer? If you're listening at a systems level, sometimes Sometimes the preemptive approach from competitor B in one of your customers may actually have set competitor B up for failure because they're focused on you, not the customer.

[11:42] And in that moment, you can simply say, look, I think you raise a valid point. But at our organization, we're all about your success and the success of your customers. I'll be delighted to get to that once I understand how that matters to you. When you're listening at a systems level, when you're listening fully through the context, which is level three, you quickly understand, am I listening for the symptom or am I listening for the broader system? Because again, back to the sales manager's role, you want to be able to leverage your time. For a unit of your time, you need to be able to assist the team and ensure we land quota, the whole quota, not just each individual quota. Because sometimes we over-allocate our quotas, but sometimes we might lose somebody who you might have an open head count for best part of a quarter and you can still miss. So one of the things I invite you to explore is how well are you listening for symptoms when somebody comes to you and how well are you translating that into a systematic approach for the way you communicate with your your team and your peers across the organization, whether it's professional services or engineering or help desk or marketing to set your team up for success. Hamish, I'm really curious though, when you hear that, what's going through your mind? Great question, Oscar. Thank you for turning the tables. What it goes to is.

[13:10] Humans can get trapped in heuristics, right? In ways of talking or acting or thinking. And especially from a sales leader perspective, where especially if they've come out of the sales team, right? Top performing salesperson became the sales leader. They want to have the cape on their back, right? And the salesperson comes in and says, hey, competitor B, et cetera, et cetera. And the sales leader goes, oh, well, when I was in your role and I ran up against competitor B, I would say this, this, this, this, and this. And they go, thanks boss. and that may not actually be the real problem. As you identified, they may not be actually focused on the customer. They're so caught up in competitor B that they've forgotten that the most important person in this whole interaction is the prospect.

[13:53] So to have that and then also to allow our team to be the geniuses, that's another thing that I know I've experienced in my sales career with sales leaders who could have used some listening training from you, which was they wanted to be, again, the superhero, the rescuer. And there were plenty of my colleagues who had great ideas. And I knew they had great ideas because I'd take them out for coffee afterwards and say, okay, I know boss said this, but what's the more updated version? Because they haven't been out in the field in five years. And so giving our teams the opportunity to be the geniuses raises our stature with them because they're looking at us not as the one who's giving them the answers, but the one who's supporting and guiding them to higher levels of success.

[14:40] Yeah, and two weeks ago, I was working with a CEO in the UK and they're planning their annual sales conference and massive changes in the buying profile of customers in their customer base. It's moved from a central procurement approach to where the budgets are now being delegated well outside the core function that they go to. And this organization sells technology, their typical contact, chief information officer, good news. In the past, a lot of budgets were centralized. Now it's decentralized. And this has made a big difference. Now, when we were sitting down and the question they posed to me is, how do I create a great sales kickoff? And the question I posed back to them is, I suspect we're asking ourselves the wrong question here. What's the purpose of a sales kickoff from your perspective? And in a nutshell, it was.

[15:38] Tell them about the new product, motivate them, get them out the door. Off we go. I said, how many product release cycles are you anticipating in the next 12 months? The answer was eight. So nearly every other month, they're dropping new product into their software.

[15:54] And I said, so are you going to have a sales kickoff every time you drop that in? And he said, oh, actually, no. I said, so let's reimagine what a sales kickoff is. You talk about your biggest problem is decentralization. How many customers? Oh yeah, we've got customers coming. I said, great. Tell me about the profile of the customers coming and presenting. CIO, CIO, CIO. I said, great. But you just told me that chief marketing officers, chief revenue officers, head of customer care, all the buyers that you need. I was like, how do we listen to them? And in that moment, he just paused and he went, how did you just do that? And I just went do what because you have no idea about my organized I said it's symptom versus system are we listening of content we're listening at context and I said to him too much of our selling is thinking about beating the competition but the reality is we have to help the customer navigate their business case if we're really skillful sellers because a lot of the time we outsource the sale of the business case, despite the fact we might win against competitive B. The reality is there's a series of other projects where capital and budgets get allocated that might have nothing to do with your category.

[17:15] As a result, and this is the genius, I just said to him, what's one thing we can do before this sales kickoff to listen to our sellers? He says, well, we can ask them what they want at their sales kickoff. I said, yeah. So they did. They did a really quick survey of about 60 sellers, and they got very tactical questions that they had never anticipated would be required in the agenda. Now you're listening to your sellers at all levels because sometimes the symptoms matter as much as the systems. True. So Oscar, you said something a little bit earlier about the levels. And so we've talked about content, we've talked about context. And then what fascinated me, and especially as I was reading deep listening, was unsaid is before meaning. And I was very curious to hear more about that because.

[18:09] In my, you know, the way I think it would be opposite, right? We'd have meaning and then we would have the, we would have this, the gap at the end, which was what the word's unsaid. So would you, would you be comfortable sharing a bit more about how the unsaid is actually before the meaning? And then what does that actually mean from a sales leader perspective for listening for the unsaid? I was working with an ad agency group.

[18:32] Oh, I spent five years ago and that they were dealing with what they called a toxic sick chief marketing officer. They couldn't figure out this customer. And I said to them, look, here's something really critical you need to understand about the science of listening. We speak at about 125 to 150 words per minute. Yet before we speak, we're thinking at 900 words per minute on average. Now, depending on how complex, how competitive, how constrained your resourcing is, you may be thinking at up to 1600 words per minute. Now, if you just think about that maths for a moment. The person you are listening to has got 900 words per minute stuck in their mind, and they have a mouth that can get it out at 125, maybe even 150, and possibly 200 words per minute. But whatever speed they're speaking at, they can only really get out about 14 to 15% of what they're thinking. And yet, most people are in dialogue with the 14% and ignoring the 86%. Now, not all 86% is relevant either, but another 14% and another 14%, the conversation will move in a very different direction.

[19:42] And when you ask the questions we're going to talk about here with this agency group, people's body physiology will change. They'll take a deep breath in, their spine will become more erect, their shoulders will go back, they will sigh when you ask questions that explore what's unsaid. And I'll use code words. They'll say, shh.

[20:04] Well, actually, Hamish, now that I think about it, you know what's really important that we haven't discussed?

[20:12] You know what I've been struggling to explain but haven't said eloquently? So they'll use these words. Now, back to the agency. I asked the agency to simply ask the CMO a really simple question, what else? And for the first couple of meetings, that what else didn't necessarily land for the CMO, that was still stuck in really transactional dialogue. The third meeting, the agency lead said to this chief marketing officer, is there anything else? And in that moment, the CMO literally said to them as if they were vomiting the words out of their mouth that came out at such a rate. Do you really want to know how you can help me? This is the worst, most toxic environment I've ever been at, find me another job. And in that moment, rather than dialoguing about find me another job, they just said, tell me more about that. And they explained that the system and the people and the culture, it wasn't compatible with the values of the CMO. And the agency had got a very synthesized, concentrated version of the chief marketing officer.

[21:28] So they came back and they said, we think we can get you another job. The way we're going to do that is build an industry award-winning campaign for you. So you will win an award and people will be attracted to you. Now, Hamish, it took two years and that did eventuate.

[21:47] And the CMO moved to a much larger organization with much bigger budgets for marketing. And they invited that agency for their business. They didn't ask anybody else to propose. It was just that agency that moved across. Now, initially, they were stuck in very transactional sales conversations about this campaign and that campaign. But when they started to just ask simple, tell me more, what else? Just be a little bit more careful and silent, they will start to expose the political landscape of the environment too, because you've built up some trust. But more importantly, you're listening to what they haven't said. When you start to listen to what people don't say, that will start to tell you what really matters to them, because it's rare that people get the opportunity to be heard, let alone listened to. A question that I'm sure you work with when you work with sales leaders that I think it's a question possibly sellers don't ask often enough is who else is involved? Who else is impacted by this project?

[22:58] These questions are designed to get a 360 degree of not just the sales environment, but the implementation environment as well, because that's where the ROI for the business case will eventually come from. So when you understand the 125-900 rule, the differential between speaking speed and thinking speed, you'll understand that just one more question, just one more question.

[23:25] And they're very simple questions. Tell me more and what else? The third question, definitely not used often enough, is the shortest question. And it's silence. And there's no coincidence that the words silent and listen share exactly the same letters.

[23:42] And the same is true for sales leaders as well. When you have a seller in front of you who's struggling with a situation, one of the most important questions you can ask them is, what have you thought about already? Because often, for them going back and thinking about what they've thought about already, initially, when they thought about that, it wasn't appropriate. But now when you're in front of them and listening to them, they can join dots that they didn't join when they were thinking about it in their own mind and your listening presence can unleash a lot of their potential because quite often they'll join thought A with thought C and then sprinkle a little bit of thought B in there and then as a sales leader you may provide some salt on that stake for them and take them to the next level. In that moment then when you hear what they haven't said, but more importantly, they express what they haven't said out aloud from their thinking. Only then can you help them understand what does it mean for them. So, Oscar, it reminds me, one of my coaches will do this, does this to me to this day. And she'll say, well, Hamish, what do you think about fill in the blank? And I'll say, well, I haven't thought about it. And he'll say, well, now that you are thinking about it, what do you think? And I always have an answer. Without fail, I give him something. But then, but it also reminds me of.

[25:08] I coach the leaders that I work with around the 15 second pause. So there's some data out there that says in Western societies, human beings can go less than three seconds of silence before they start to feel they have to fill. And so we coach our leaders to ask a question, Oscar, what have you thought about this? And then in their heads, not out loud, obviously, but in their heads, just start counting backwards from 15. And by the time they get to 12, the other person has probably started speaking because they've had the space to allow their thoughts to catch up and to get the thoughts out of their mouth, as you've so eloquently illustrated with the 125.

[25:45] 900, and 1600 rules. So thank you for sharing those insights with us today. I really feel that the leaders who are listening today are going to get a lot out of it and also that can be implemented right away. That the things that you're talking about are not, I got to go study them for a year and a half. You can stop listening to this podcast right now walk over to one of your sales people and say tell me more about that it's very simple so oscar i want to say thank you for sharing those insights with us well thanks for listening and uh that's the power when you listen the difference between hearing and listening is the action you take and if you want to find out what your listening barriers are just visit listeningquiz.com so rather than connect with me connect with your own listening and take the seven minute quiz. The average person finishes in four and a half minutes and you'll get a report that tells you what your listening barrier is, but three really practical tips to do something about it immediately.

[26:43] Amazing. So we will absolutely put listening quiz in the show notes. So wherever you happen to be listening to the podcast, make sure you click that link to spend on average four and a half or maybe seven minutes and understanding a bit more about your listening and getting practical tips is absolutely worth it. I've read Oscar's book, Deep Listening, and really enjoy his podcast. So check both of those out. Those will also be in the show notes. You've been listening to the How to Succeed podcast today. We've got ideas and insights from world-leading listening expert, Oscar Trimboli, on the power of deep listening. The Full Funnel Freedom podcast is brought to you by Sandler Calgary. If you're tired of coaches and consultants only giving you the what you need to do to scale and not supporting you with the how, how Sandler Calgary gives you the what, and we'll help you out with the hows as well. Go to hamish.sandler.com slash howtosandler for more details. Thanks for listening. Find us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're looking for transcripts, go to fullfunnelfreedom.com. Until we connect with you on the next episode, go create full funnel freedom. Thank you for listening to Full Funnel Freedom with Hamish Knox. If you want to increase your sales with ease, go to fullfunnelfreedom.com.

[27:55] Music.